An interview
with Archana Masih
'Like people say
in China they have legalised corruption. You have to pay commission for
everything and commission is legalised. People say the same should be done in
India, then corruption will not be a problem.' 'It will be an acceptable
route and bribes can be paid by cheque.
'Badri Narayan, one of India's leading thinkers, in an
outspoken interview. Badri Narayan is one of India's
out-of-the-box thinkers.
A leading voice
on Dalit and subaltern issues, and identity formation, Professor Narayan is the
project director of the Dalit Resource Centre at the G B Pant Institute of
Social Science in Allahabad, and has written the well received.
Women Heroes and Dalit
Assertion in North India and Fascinating Hindutva -- Saffron
Politics and Dalit Mobilisation.
In the second part of an eloquent interview with Archana Masih, he speaks about how the reservation policy has benefitted individuals rather than the community and why it may be another 100 years before a Dalit middle class emerged.
Part I of
the interview:
'We're emerging as a superpower bhagwan
bharose'
How has the image of India changed
outside the country in the past two years?
There are many images of India. One is
that Indians are very hardworking and adjusting. So Indians as a people have
another image; India as a nation has a different image and India's governance
has a different image.
There is corruption in governance, but
the world sees that the Indian nation is growing despite that because it has a
huge population and will emerge as a superpower.
As an intellectual observer and a
student of India, how despondent are you about corruption in India?
It is a big problem for the Indian
nation. It is not confined to one party. Every party has the same kind of
characteristic. Everyone wants money because of globalisation, the flow of money and
consumerism.
I would like to criticise the
corruption of every party and the corruption of ourselves too. Even government
institutes have to pay bribes to get their work done, so you can imagine where we have reached!
Corruption is a part of our system.
It is a reality.
Like people say in China they have
legalised corruption. You have to pay commission for everything and commission
is legalised. People say the same should be done in India, then corruption will
not be a problem.
It will be an acceptable route and
bribes can be paid by cheque, where a certain percent can be paid.
That may be one argument, but there is
a moral argument as well, which is why do we have this corruption? But if the
whole system is centered on corruption, if nothing moves without corruption, in
that case corruption should be legalised.
What are your thoughts on the quota in
promotions?
Actually, no one is opposed to
reservation in promotion or for that matter anywhere. Because reservation is a
very legitimised moral position. You have to support it because you want to
help the community to progress.
But I feel that we could have done
without reservation also. It was not needed.
What was needed was to bring in a lot
of lecturers at the initial entry level. Those lecturers would have become professors in seven
years, they would have to be promoted -- nobody can stop that.
The problem was that they were late
entrants in that corridor. The problem is not whether you are going to give
reservation in promotion or not, the problem is in the better implementation of
the policy.
The problem is that they have to be
built up at the student level to become good academicians and then try to bring them
to the lecturer level. The problem is in the students we are creating.
The problem is in the whole academic
culture. We have to first develop those students.
How do you see this quota system
panning out?
You can have as much quota as possible,
but it has to be implemented properly. Implementation is at two levels:
1.
Trying to bring in good people and
2.
Creating and preparing good people.
So the challenge is in creating that
environment... The reservation debate is a very polarising one. It leaves the
middle class very agitated to see merit being superseded by quota.
I am not against quotas. The Mandal
Commission Report was implemented around the 1980s and before that reservation
was started through our Constitution, but in spite of that if you can't get
professors, you won't get it by bringing in quotas in reservation. Even in this
only those who have become lecturers will become professors.
The creamy layer will always take
advantage. But we haven't been able to create potential candidates.
There is also the reality that in
higher posts, there aren't many Dalits.
There are many in the IAS from the
Dalit community these days. But that will not solve the problem because they
will not pay back to the community. They exist as an atomic individual, not as
a community.
We are giving the reservation policy to
individuals rather than the community.
The reservation policy has to be
maintained properly and implemented properly. The implementation is at three
levels –
1. School level
2. Creating a good environment in
colleges and
3. Bringing them to the university
level to become professors. Like Hyderabad University has good Dalit
professors.
So reservations are here to stay? It's
not as if 20, 30 years later it could be done away with?
You can't. Democracy is like this. They
have developed a group which is dominant in politics. If you want to make
certain changes -- you can't. You will have to support it the way it is
working.
They are not even critically thinking
about their own creamy layer which is getting all the benefits. That creamy
layer is dominant, they are their voice, they speak for the community.
So they have a vested interest and
don't want any change in the system.
There is no option, no alternative. You
have to continue like this. You have to prepare the creamy layer and through
them you have to show the development.
That creamy layer will take the benefit
for a very long time and slowly it will trickle down; and maybe after 100 years
you can find a middle class of Dalits.
It sounds very discouraging that it
will take that long.
In UP, Mayawati, a Dalit, was chief
minister for ten years. What happened? Only a small percentage of the Dalit
community became powerful. Most of them are still knocking on the door of
democracy.
And some of those are not even capable
to go to the door of democracy.
This interview is by the kind courtesy of Archana Masih of rediffmail.com
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